Turning the Wheel

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 07/19/2018 at 17:21 • Filed to: None

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My son has started driving. He’s doing pretty well, but he does one thing that drives me crazy: he shuffle steers. I think it’s also called push-pull. I drove a manual for 30 years, and I am a dedicated one-hand steerer: left hand at 12 o’clock, right hand resting on the shifter (or close to it), grab or palm the wheel around. So I’m not really the best one to school him on how to turn the wheel.

What happens is that he shuffles through the turn too slowly and then gets too deep and “behind the turn.” He’s chasing the car instead of driving it. The shuffle also leads to more “sawing” of the wheel than I’d like. I’ll be interested to see what his actual official driving instructor tells him next week when he starts his on-the-road training.

What do you do Oppo? How might I encourage him to steer more effectively and positively?

Echo51 > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:31

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Point and shoot, aim where you want to go? Ala the usual track-driving instruction goes? My instructor told me to look ahead of the car(like 30m forward) to follow the line/road, not at the line straight infront of it.

RE: shuffle steering, that seems like recipe for mad since you have to coordinate hand-off from right to left hand while continuing to apply steering correction. Both hands on, steer with both, also like track-driving instruction goes.

Takuro Spirit > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:32

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Buy him a Necker Knob

LOREM IPSUM > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:32

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I think that’s actually how they teach now. No hand over hand anymore. No one handedness whatsoever. They want both of your hands touching the wheel at all times.

9 and 3 these days too, due to the airbags. 10 and 2 is a thing of the past as well.

Personally though, if I’m not palming the wheel with my left, I’m holding on with a finger and thumb with m y right hand in my lap. Unless I'm actually driving with purpose, of course.

Shamoononon drives like a farmer > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:32

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T eaching my kid how to drive too right now. I’m a one hand driver as well but I found she does a lot better on her turns if she does it the instructor taught way.  

ttyymmnn > Echo51 07/19/2018 at 17:33

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It’s not so much a looking thing as it is a mechanics-of-turning-the-wheel thing. It’s difficult to describe something that I do so instinctively now after 35 years of driving.

ttyymmnn > Takuro Spirit 07/19/2018 at 17:33

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Ah, no.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:35

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10 & 2, and think about pushing with the opposite arm, not pulling with the “near” arm. So, for a left turn, your right arm’s doing most of the work, and vice versa. For optimal driving control, there’s no good reason for your hands to move from those two spots. Make sure he’s looking where he wants to go and not sitting too far away from the wheel.

Clearly, when driving a manual, or just for driving comfort, your hands end up elsewhere, but teach 10 & 2 and the benefits of having maximum control at all times.

To address sawing, explain to him that engineers design most curves on roads with a constant radius, so once he finds the right steering angle at the beginning of a curve , he just needs to hold it there until the road straightens out.

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:35

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Shuffle steering is often pitched as the best way to go, but I think it’s mainly to keep you hands away from the airbag.

I’ve also heard “that’s the way race drivers steer” but they’re not usually doing the same degree of input — a half turn in most cases? Compare that to a full turn or more in a passenger car, all the time.

I say encourage him to pick a line first  and try whatever works. The exit from the turn (“controlled slipping” of the wheel) is the much harder part to get right.

BeaterGT > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:36

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Practice makes perfect! Set up some cones/obstacles in an empty lot and have him do the same turn until you both feel comfortable. Make sure he doesn’t brake while turning and is comfortable with slight gas or coasting through the turn .

You can also video from the outside to give him a better sense of where the car is while turning in relation to the obstacles. This is something I wish I had done when I first started driving, when driving awareness is still being built upon .

ttyymmnn > LOREM IPSUM 07/19/2018 at 17:37

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I drive with my hand at 12 so much that my wife noticed on our long drive vacation that I was at 10-2 and she asked if I was okay. It’s hard to explain something that I do so instinctively now.

ttyymmnn > Shamoononon drives like a farmer 07/19/2018 at 17:38

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And how did the instructor teach it?

ttyymmnn > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/19/2018 at 17:39

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think about pushing with the opposite arm, not pulling with the “near” arm.

I like that. Thanks.

CaptDale - is secretly British > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:40

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I am very positive that 1 hand steering  is not how you are “supposed” to do it. 2 hands on the wheel unless you are changing gears. 

ttyymmnn > Ash78, voting early and often 07/19/2018 at 17:40

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He’s actually got the “slipping” part down pretty well. He’s just too hesitant, or slow with the wheel, going into the turn.

DutchieDC2R > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:41

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Your son is actual ly steering in a very effective manner. The shuffling is the standard way of being taught to steer in The Nether lands (although the over-hand method was also used when I was taking lessons). I cant remember what the reasoning behind it was, but it had something to do with tangeling/untangeling of the arms.

Also, dont put your hand ON the shifter...

ttyymmnn > BeaterGT 07/19/2018 at 17:42

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I’ve been telling him, “Brake going in, release in the middle, drive out.” That’s what I seem to do when I analyze my own turning. So you’re really braking in a straight line, then turning the wheel, then powering out.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:42

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I edited to add a little bit about “sawing” at the end . My wife grew up in Kansas (zero curved roads) and had a problem with this for a while.

His Stigness > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:43

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Teach him 10 and 2 sitting close enough that when he goes full lock his shoulder is not coming off the seat. This is how I was taught at the track, and considering that environment can more dangerous than a regular road, it’s how I would teach someone to drive.

But also measure the distance between his chest and the steering wheel so the airbag does not severely eff him up.

If you instill good habits now he’ll always have them. I was in the car when my four older siblings all learned how to drive, so by the time I learned I knew what not do, and what to do. The thing I learned from my brother was simple: COMMIT TO A FUCKING ACTION! He’d always hesitate, and he’d do it in the middle of an intersection, or turn, or somewhere else he shouldn’t be. Commit

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:44

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My dad trained me very well during my drivers ed time.

For something like this he h ad me go to an open lot and had me roll at about 5 mph. Then, turn the wheel all the way lock to lock, back and forth, a few times making big S’s in the lot.

Good way to get the feel for how fast your hands need to move. He can also try shuffle steer one way then hand over hand the other to try the difference back to back.

ttyymmnn > CaptDale - is secretly British 07/19/2018 at 17:45

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Yeah, but old habits are very hard to break. 

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:46

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Oddly one hand on the yoke *is* how you’re supposed to flight a small airplane.

ttyymmnn > DutchieDC2R 07/19/2018 at 17:47

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Also, dont put your hand ON the shifter...

Yeah, I know. Once I learned not to do that I started resting my hand on the E brake instead, or on the boot. And don’t rest your foot on the clutch, either!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:48

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This is track driving stuff, but you can explain that a tire only has so much grip to give. It can give 100% in braking or 100% in cornering or 100% in accelerating , but if you ever try to mix two, you need to balance the forces . So, breaking it down for a curve: get most of your braking done while straight, ease off the brakes as you ease into the turn, coast to the apex of the turn, light throttle as you exit the turn and straighten the wheel and then more throttle as you get back to speed.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:48

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I was taught hands at 9 and 3 rather than the old 10 and 2. You KEEP your hands there for any maneuver that lets you make the turn without having to move them because that way you can turn the wheel 180 degrees in either direction by crossing over your arms in an emergency without having to move your hands. Also, thumbs in along the rim in case the airbag goes off.

VonBootWilly - Likes Toyota, but it's still complicated. > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:50

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Apple or pear in left hand, shifter in right hand, gas knee on wheel.

I have to admit I’m not a fan of the 12 o’clock grip. Everyone I know that is bad at driving does it. I think you have to switch out of 12 o’clock to do any sudden reaction. Probably better for smoking or driving and eating.

My recommendation is not to think about it, if anyone can see the benefit of car control, I think the technique just comes from driving.

BeaterGT > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 17:50

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To put it simply...   Blinker, brake, turn, gas. It sounds easy because we’ve been doing it for years but getting the motions down takes a little time. Y our son may think he is following your instruction but may be mistiming one action or another .

ttyymmnn > His Stigness 07/19/2018 at 17:50

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But also measure the distance between his chest and the steering wheel so the airbag does not severely eff him up.

Absolutely. We’ve already had this discussion.

COMMIT TO A FUCKING ACTION!

This, a thousand times THIS. We were talking the other day about being predictable. You have to drive in such a manner that the other driver can predict what you are going to do. And then hope they return the favor. I also told him that speeders, distracted drivers, etc. are all dangerous, but there is nothing worse than an indecisive driver.

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 07/19/2018 at 17:53

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But isn’t that to discourage too much input that gets you chasing the plane?

ttyymmnn > BeaterGT 07/19/2018 at 17:54

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Oh, it’s very much a matter of coordination, and that takes time to learn. 

ttyymmnn > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/19/2018 at 17:57

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I learned long ago in the days before airbags. It would take a mountain of time (or one good crash) to get me to change my ways. I would almost certainly have a broken arm if I crashed. But then again, the airbag in the Honda would slit my jugular, so I wouldn’t need to worry about the arm.

ttyymmnn > VonBootWilly - Likes Toyota, but it's still complicated. 07/19/2018 at 17:59

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I would have to say that 35 years of safe driving has made me pretty good at 12 o’clock. I will also say that when I get into situations where extra attention is needed, dicey situations, bad weather, etc. I instinctively switch to 10-2. I would never teach anybody 12 o’clock. 

and 100 more > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:00

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When not one-handing, I’ve always shuffled, never had a problem with it.

What I don’t get is the people who keep their hands at 10-&-2 aaaaaaa ll the way thru a turn, to the point that they cross their arms in front of them (Mr. Regular does this, drives me apeshit).

I’ve heard recently that you should drive at 4-&-8, like a chauffeur. I find myself doing this on long drives, or if my steering wheel permits, one hand at 6.

I know I’m doing everything wrong.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:00

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I was taught to have my right hand on the throttle for a couple of reasons. One is to be able to move it quickly, but the primary reason is so you don’t pull the mixture when you’re trying to pull the throttle. That would make   things very quiet in the cockpit.

But yeah, it also has the benefit of reducing over control, now that you mention it. 

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 07/19/2018 at 18:01

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That would make things very quiet in the cockpit.

:D

ttyymmnn > and 100 more 07/19/2018 at 18:02

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I know I’m doing everything wrong.

Have you crashed yet? Have you ever driven out of an accident or swerved to avoid something? If you have, then I’d say you are doing just fine.

His Stigness > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:02

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Driving on public streets is basically predicting what other people are going to do, and since most people are stupid, it’s kind of stressful.

LOREM IPSUM > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:05

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Please also reinforce proper side view mirror aiming. If you can see the side of your own car, they’re aimed too far in. Keep nudging them until your car disappears from view, and it improves your field of vision dramatically. Otherwise, you’re not looking in the lane next to you, you’re looking directly behind yourself an d creating a massive blind spot.

I know some people have a hard time with this, but I promise your car i s still right there, even though you can't see it.

ttyymmnn > His Stigness 07/19/2018 at 18:05

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I’ve also told him that he has to drive like everybody else on the road is actively trying to kill him. Sort of like this:

and 100 more > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:05

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I have been tho roughly, incredibly lucky in that regard.

gettingoldercarguy > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:07

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Send him to the intro BMW driving school. It’s almost all parking lot stuff, every mechanically sound car is welcome and they teach a lot of accident avoidance maneuvers. From there he may see why autocross is so much fun.  

ttyymmnn > LOREM IPSUM 07/19/2018 at 18:08

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Absolutely. I am a hard core mirror user. I never understood the people who pay for a perfectly good right side mirror and then look over their shoulder. Learn to read your mirrors and USE THEM. Both of our cars are also fitted with blindspot mirrors for added reflecting goodness.

He’s also going to learn to back up without the camera. I back into our driveway every day. It makes leaving a hell of a lot safer, especially since we live on an uphill curve.

WRXforScience > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:11

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First, sign him up for one of these: http://streetsurvival.org/

Shuffle steering is taught at many driver’s ed programs because it keeps two hands on the wheel at all times.

Locking your hands at 9& 3 is the preferred performance driving technique (10&2 is a hold-over from when cars didn’t have power steering and you needed the extra leverage). Many racing wheels just have single position handholds instead of being a wheel. The main advantage of not moving your hands is that you always know the relationship between your hand position and the direction of the wheels (this makes counter- steering much easier).

After the street survival course, do an autocross. There is no better way to learn car control than dodging cones.

Many events (nearly all autox, and the majority of HPDE’s) allow ride- a- longs with instructors. Riding shotgun next to someone with mastery of car control can be a life altering experience. Make sure to watch the instructor’s inputs (steering and footwork).

When I was instructing last month, I had a student who was overly aggressive with his steering inputs and just over driving the car. He didn’t even realize that what he was doing was only making him slower. After a session or two he’d improved, but he just couldn’t accept the idea that smooth inputs were what he needed. After lunch, I took him out for a ride in my BRZ (he was in an FRS, so he was pretty excited to compare). After a couple of laps I told him to try to watch me for a lap (it’s tough to force yourself to quit looking out the windows when you are going much faster than you think is possible).

He was dumbstruck by how little I actually did. He became transfixed on me and for two full laps didn’t look up. We caught up to excessive traffic and it was hot, so I pulled into the pits and we talked about the experience. His number one takeaway was that smooth, precise inputs were the key to speed. He was amazed at how I would take corners as a unified process instead of discrete steps. His last couple of sessions were noticeably better, he wasn’t just chasing speed anymore, but rather was trying to develop his skills. He ended up improving on his personal best by seconds instead of tenths (his original goal for the day).

The first step to becoming a better driver is to realize that you can. Open your mind and bring an attitude of a learner and you will grow.  

His Stigness > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:19

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Another good piece of advice is drive like no one can see you, because that's what it seems like. 

BeaterGT > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:28

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Good luc k ! He’ll be heel-toeing in no time.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > LOREM IPSUM 07/19/2018 at 18:30

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I like having my driver side mirror aimed closer to the car and use it more so as a second rear view mirror. I can already see the drivers side out of my peripheral anyways so its hard to find a blind spot there. Definitely agree for the passenger mirror though. That thing can be as wide as possible.

However, both cars have almost zero blind spots due to either giant windows in the Subaru or no roof in the Miata. Driving rental cars, I usually just point both outward enough like you are talking about since there are always massive blind spots in newer cars. I have to drive like I am in a pillbox regardless of the car most of the time so it just feels unsafe no matter what I do. 

NKato > LOREM IPSUM 07/19/2018 at 18:31

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That is an interesting attitude about mirrors. I typically keep a tiny sliver of my car in the view picture. It helps that my Crown Vic has excellent blind spot visibility. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > and 100 more 07/19/2018 at 18:32

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That is precisely what you should do for any sort of racing environment (aside from 10 and 2, more like 9 and 3 is right) . Crossing your arms is just fine to maintain complete control. That was definitely what I was taught by autocross instructors. And since I do that often enough, it has just translated to me always driving like that. I am a bit more relaxed about it while street driving, but it is muscle memory.

and 100 more > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 07/19/2018 at 18:37

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I get it if you’re driving a car with a really quick steering rack, it makes sense. If you’re on a track, you’re likely turning less than a half a revolution of the wheel to get around a curve. But on the street, it doesn’t make much sense. Right turn at an intersection? Just shuffle the wheel.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:41

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It’s funny that you say driving manual makes you drive with one hand. Because I actually find that the opposite happens to me. When I drive any car that is a manual, I am guaranteed to steer with two hands always. Right hand is only off the wheel to shift and then immediately back as quick as possible. Generally shifting and massive steering input at the same time is a bad idea anyways so I just avoid that if possible so that I don’t loop it.

But as soon as I drive an automatic I devolve into one handed steering at least half of the time since I just get bored and feel like I am not providing any real input to the driving equation anyways. I think it is also a factor of automatic cars are usually rentals and they all have light as hell steering that is way too easy to operate. My own cars at least have somewhat heavy steering which would make one handed operation annoying below highway speeds.

I think the only time I consistently one handed steer in my own cars is while cruising down the highway for hours on end. I will just hold on at 9oclock and rest my arm on the door while my right arm is down on the center console. That way I can quickly react and be at 9 and 3 if need be.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > and 100 more 07/19/2018 at 18:47

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Hah well yeah that’s why I was saying I am a bit more relaxed while street driving. But considering this was autocross instruction, I got used to further than 90 degree turns while doing that. I think the only time I really shuffle is for a full 180 or more turn. It helps having a quick rack though for sure.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 18:47

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Also pretty hot in the cockpit since the  big fan in front would stop turning

LOREM IPSUM > NKato 07/19/2018 at 18:53

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Not so much an attitude as it is a fact that spreading them increases the overall width of your field of vision, while reducing the amount of space a vehicle has to hide when it’s in the precarious “just left mirror view but hasn’t entered peripheral vision yet” position.

Why look at your door handle when you can see an extra lane over to the left instead?

Different strokes for different folks, but I only need one rear view to see what’s directly behind me.

All of that said, having a vehicle with a good greenhouse, or no greenhouse at all, d efinitely helps. Still though, maybe give it a shot and see, just for kicks. Or not. Lol.

ttyymmnn > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 07/19/2018 at 18:54

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I had a music history teacher who was fond of saying, “All generalizations are lies.” It’s a rather profound statement in its oxymoron-ness, but the more I think about how I drive the more times I remember driving with two hands. It’s been a couple of years since my 5-speed Golf was totaled, so it’s been a couple of years since I’ve driven a manual (it only took a year to get over the withdrawals). I drive my auto cars almost exclusively with one hand, but now I’m not so sure how I drove my manual. I guess I’ll have to go buy a manual beater and remember how I did it!

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 07/19/2018 at 18:55

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LOREM IPSUM > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/19/2018 at 19:10

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Also, it lessens the chances that the airbag will knock your hands free from the wheel, causing you to potentially lose further control.

...and, it lessens the chances of the airbag breaking your arm and/or sending said arm into your face.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 19:23

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10 and 2 is the right thing to do. Regardless of the transmission.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 19:33

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That seems unnecessary in a perfectly good glider to me. 

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 07/19/2018 at 19:44

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The fact that another airplane is there to photograph it so clearly makes me think it’s a stunt. But it’s a famous shot.

Elumerere > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 19:54

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I’d hammer the “wherever your eyes are looking at you will drive towards” into his mind. Over and over again. Teach him how to see what’s not just in front of him, but 6 cars up, and also have an understanding of where the cars behind and to the side are at all times.

The ‘follow your eyes’ trick will solve the steering issue fairly quick.

Elumerere > LOREM IPSUM 07/19/2018 at 19:56

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I learned about this mirror alignment maybe a year or two ago off of Oppo. I would never go back. It makes so much more sense and my orientation on the road has improved massively.

Elumerere > His Stigness 07/19/2018 at 20:00

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COMMIT TO A FUCKING ACTION!

This is everything.

Elumerere > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 20:04

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What’s the story behind it?

smobgirl > ttyymmnn 07/19/2018 at 20:53

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We were taught push-pull/shuffle starting the year before me in drivers ed. I know airbags were part of it but it had also something to do with a friend of mine flipping the car during a lesson with the school district . I’m a 9 and 3 or 12 and shift knob myself most of the time, but I’ll sometimes hand over once and let the wheel slide itself back after a turn.

ttyymmnn > Elumerere 07/19/2018 at 21:08

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That, I don’t know. In my work with aviation history, I just come across it a whole lot. 

facw > LOREM IPSUM 07/19/2018 at 22:24

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I keep the side of my car just out of frame on the mirror (so I can see it with a head tilt). Backing into a tight parking space is much easier if I can see where the car is as well. Maybe it would be less of an issue if I had a backup camera or those fancy power mirrors that change position when you shift into or out of reverse.

LOREM IPSUM > facw 07/19/2018 at 22:25

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This is acceptable, and advisable.

GLiddy > ttyymmnn 07/20/2018 at 00:15

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My college roommate taught me two dangerous but very useful steering methods. Knee steering, and the palm spin. Once you get the hang of spinning the wheel with your palm, its almost as good as having a brodie knob on the wheel.

VonBootWilly - Likes Toyota, but it's still complicated. > ttyymmnn 07/20/2018 at 08:07

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I should have added, this wasn't a dig at you, I could have also said you can drive with one finger most of the day but switch when needed. But 12 is almost always the choice of tailgate habituals so it gets a bad reputation.

ttyymmnn > VonBootWilly - Likes Toyota, but it's still complicated. 07/20/2018 at 08:29

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I understand, thanks.  . Trying to teach my son has also brought on a wave of self analysis about how I do things. We tend to think of the 12-o’clockers as the drivers who push the seat all the way back and drape their hand atop the wheel. My own 12 o’clock driving is sitting forward and engaged. Even if it’s a trip to the grocery store, I love being behind the wheel. I’m trying to encourage my son to be equally serious about it.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > ttyymmnn 07/20/2018 at 08:33

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I do hand over hand or one handed steer if I’m driving stick. Actually, if he’s taken driving classes, they likely would have taught him shuffle steer. That’s what they’ve moved to teaching- if you get in a crash in a turn, you don’t want you arms crossed in front of your torso when the airbag goes off. I think the hand over hand method most people use goes back to pre-airbag era (when our parents who taught us learned to drive).

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > LOREM IPSUM 07/20/2018 at 08:34

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I was always taught to adjust them so you could just barely see the side of your car with your head turned to the mirror. It gives you a reference point, and you should be turning your head to check blind spots for a merge anyway.

ttyymmnn > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 07/20/2018 at 09:06

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I guess his shuffles are just too small. I drove my wife to the park and ride this morning and experimented with the shuffle. It felt entirely foreign to me, but I can see how the push-pull system would be useful. It will be easier to teach it once I understand it myself. Something something old dog new tricks something something.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > ttyymmnn 07/20/2018 at 09:08

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Something like that. I learned shuffle, but everyone in my family does hand over hand, so I switched to that. Shuffle feels super weird to me.

LOREM IPSUM > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 07/20/2018 at 09:47

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This is what I’m alluding to. However, there is a huge cross section of people who have their side view mirrors cranked so far inward they become functionality useless for anything more than ensuring they shut their gas cap. I see this a lot, and  it’s a pet peeve of mine.

ateamfan42 > LOREM IPSUM 07/20/2018 at 09:54

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Why look at your door handle when you can see an extra lane over to the left instead?

Having part of the car in view as a reference point while reversing is terrific. But it does mean you need to give up some of the side view, unfortunately.

I’m a big fan of the stick-on convex mirrors to give extra view into the blind spots.  They also give a view at ground level which is handy for backing into driveways and parking spots.

LOREM IPSUM > ateamfan42 07/20/2018 at 09:56

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You don’t need the side of the car in view at all times though. Cocking your head a couple of inches in either direction brings it right back into view when you need it, if you’ve done it correctly.

Elumerere > ttyymmnn 07/20/2018 at 11:33

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It’s such a cool shot.